Gamerscore Blog

Great post John.  Obviously it's not a black and white issue, it's not always going to be listen to your customers or else.  

But I think Nintendo has the wrong idea they way it's stated in that article.  A good chunk of your customer is the hard core verbal audience, but that's not all you hear from either.  And you can't dismiss the hard core completely, the do have influence and early adopters are important.  We live in a connected age, where websites run by the hard core and community have a lot of pull, and companies need to get use to that.   Even the people selling these games at retail fronts, who are giving advice to the casual audience, are generally part of that community.

The customer is always right and listen to the customer have been important to business since the beginning, thats not going to change in the long run.  If you are having trouble reaching and listening to your user base as a whole, you need to find a better way to reach them.

A little off the point, but I want to mention, I am not impressed with the generally marketing of the Wii.  I think they were smart to limit the play sessions to just a few people and make them short, but to me that just means that the motion sensing probably is neat for a few minutes, but doesn't stand up to long term gameplay.  It might be 'innovative' but customers like the existing controllers for a reason.  There are over 100 million systems out there with what we know of as a standard video game controller, I don't hear a lot of complaints about them not working, even from the less vocal people.  When a game is innovative and fun, regardless of the controller non-gamers will find a way to play.

Well Microsoft has done plenty of surprising while meeting the needs/wants of the consumers. I don't know what's going on over there at Nintendo but I think companies should listen to the wants of they're consumers.

Listening to the hardcore (and as your audience expands, more casual customers) is not mutually exclusive with doing radical new things.

It's important to remember that the Wii, for all the press it's getting, is unproven. Maybe it'll be another gamecube - a distant third in a race of three. Who knows.

I'm thrilled that you guys listen to us, and the first update to Live is testament to that. While I have your ear, here are two other things to "listen to."

1. Just like you dumped the Duke on the Xbox, it's time to replace the controller in the 360 with a better model. The new one? Make it exactly the same but with the BEST D-pad in the business, instead of the WORST.

2. Upscaling DVD playback, and much better playback quality. Get a copy of HQV and use that to see how well you're doing. (here's a hint: the 360 is NOT a good DVD playback device)

I also forgot to add...

With every powerpad/dancemat, light gun, robots, power glove, camera, motion sensing or otherwise crazy input device we always end up back to the standard gaming pad.

I am always a sucker for these though, I have maraccas for my dreamcast and bongos for my gamecube. Sure they are fun for a bit and you pull them out at parties but they go right back into the closet when it comes time to do extended gaming.

I have lots of stories where I pulled these out and people that don't normally play video games were drumming or shaking along.   But at the end of the night, they go home and still don't play video games. And I have just as many stories of non-gamers getting hooked on Tetris and becoming a gamer, or checking out casual games on Xbox Live Arcade and giving other games a chance.  

I think you're taking the comment the wrong way. He's not saying, "never listen to your customers." He's saying if all you ever did was meet your customer's expectations you'd never be able to offer them something truly new. No one would've asked for Nintendo to make a dual-screen handheld, for instance. But they did and they've come up with some unique ways for games to fit into that mold. By the same token, I think if you asked a gamer if they'd want to play a game that gauges their mental faculties most people would say, "heck no, get that away from me," but Brain Age proves that this can actually be really fun and different. Nintendogs and Wario Ware are also great examples.

That's also what they're offering with Wii. No one in the gaming community asked Nintendo to make a console that has a controller like that -- I doubt any hardcore gamer would even come up with the notion of doing that. His comment in the same article about Tetris, and how such a game today would be forced to have all kinds of bells and whistles, is, IMO, much more supportive of the point he's trying to make. He's not saying "don't listen, period" -- he's saying "listen, but also try and give them something they never would've thought of." I don't see anything wrong with that stance.

To turn it around in Microsoft's direction, the overwhelming majority of customers (gamers) did not like the idea of the two SKUs for Xbox 360 when it was announced last year. But that didn't make the "Tard Pack" go away -- an instance of Microsoft not listening to its most loyal customers.

First of all I would argue that Sony isn't listening to its customers at all. If they were there wouldn't be a freaking $600 price tag on the PS3. Honestly - I own a 360, I'll probably own a Wii, but the PS3 will have to hit at least a $400 price point before I'll open my wallet. Furthermore removing rumble from the controller is NOT a result of customer feedback.

I own Nintendo consoles (GameCube, DS, GBA) and the reason I own them is because Nintendo has really talented developers who make great games. For whatever reason their strategy seems to be working with the DS, but even then I think that they would have been better off over the long term if they would have listened to us and beefed up the graphics a bit. I don't understand Nintendo's stance that innovative gameplay and breathtaking graphics have to be mutually exclusive.

I think the reason that Microsoft gained a stronghold in the market is because you are *really* in touch with your customer base. I never saw a company respond so quickly to customer feedback on a product until MS entered the console market. Everyone hated the huge "duke" controller, so within a few months Microsoft released a new controller. More recently everyone hated not being able to have downloads move in the background on the dashboard, and from what I've heard MS is responding to that.

Nintendo's fall from grace came because they didn't listen to their customers. We told them we wanted CD's and we got... cartridges. Now they are innovating (which is good, we like that), but their success will be short lived if they continue to ignore us.

Very well explained FullmetalCJ!

Wow, lots of great comments already for this very good question you pose. I think what it comes down to is not "do you listen?" but "what else are you doing?"
MS is doing a great job of innovating and listening to the hard core. Online wasn't something the vocal were saying was key until AFTER you guys did it. The same is true about wireless. It wasn't the most vocal group that was saying we need this, but it was seeing what the gamer wants but doesn't even know it yet.
I think nintendo will do quite well this gen, not because they didn't listen to the vocal group, but because they stood behind what they believed in, just like MS did with online last gen.
Listening is great, but it will only take you so far. Being creative and experimenting beyond what people expect is what moves this industry forward, and you guys are doing it. Keep it up MS.

When you're in Nitendo's spot of a distant third to Microsoft and Sony you can make statements like this and not be hurt.  While the Wii could be a cool gadget and may change gameplay, only time will tell.   In theory Wii seems cool and is getting some good press.

I'm not sure any company can afford to take an extreme approach of only listening to one part of their customer-base.  I would submit that the hardcore or early-adopters are a good start to listen to, since they are very involved in the gaming and they are the ones who blog about what's new, etc.  I would say that few hardcore gamers want only specialized items or features, rather they voice many features that the average player might not consider and later are glad to have.

My kids and I have played our Gamecube alot, but unfortunately the games aren't as feature-rich as the other consoles.  The other problem is that the Nitendo is geared toward a different audience than the Xbox360 or PS3.

Microsoft listens to a wide variety of consumers; hardcore, family, kids, etc.  I also agree that Microsoft responds faster than any of the other console makers.  The bar is much higher now and I'm not sure Nitendo can jump that high.

I would submit that the problem is that Nitendo and Sony, rarely listen to their customers and almost have an elitist approach versus involvement like MS does.

Iwata has a point.  If you develop your products based strictly on customer feedback I think there is a possibility that each product cycle will only provide incremental advancements.  Sometimes in order to really innovate you need to be one step ahead of what your customers will want.  If you can do that successfully you can create something that customers love but were unable to imagine and therefore unable to give you direction towards creating.  To innovate in this way requires a certain vision for the product.  

One company that I think has this sort of vision and stays ahead of the customer is Apple.  Love it or hate it, Apple has taken some bold steps with their products in the past.  Sometimes they are two far ahead of the customer and industry and other times they are able to create something that customers always wanted but couldn't fully elucidate.

It may be that Nintendo has done that with the Wii, but I am skeptical at the moment.  

All this said, ignoring your customers completely seems akin to suicide.  Innovative new products must still contain evolutionary advancements over their predecessors.  

More importantly why would a company ignore the opinions of the largest group of people familiar with the product line they produce?  If two brains are better than one, than does it not follow that the X million brains of your customers are better able to discover important new features than Y thousand brains in the company?

The level of response MS has taken to benefit its gamers is unmatched.  Innovation + what we want = xbox 360.

After such fantastic comments, it is a little bit difficult to bring some new aspect to the discussion.
Of course that in terms of technology, only if a company "doesn't" listen to its customers is that they can bring something new to the market, innovate.
I'm not an high-tech engineer. Just by sitting around at home, I can't suggest new appliances or technology.
What I can do is help shaping the new stuff in a way that it becomes user-friendly. And there is the great move from MS.
I was listening to Major Nelson's "The one after E3 06" podcast and I was astonished by the amount of details taken in consideration in term of developing the new accessoires.
Did the customer mention all that? No. They showed their needs and it led the development team to create solutions that could meet with those needs.

*thanks again for another great input*

Well... Games Workshop is the best example what happens to a market leader that does not listen to its customers... Their share in the market is getting smaller by the day..... they still control 70% of the tabletop market.... but only a few years ago this was 90+ %...  which coupled with the fact that they turned into a shareholder company got them into financial troubles.

The same with Sony.... instead listening to the developers and customers after the rather mediocre PS2 (technically speaking and also because all necessary linraries were only available months after the release of the PS2).... they seem to repeat the mistakes.... again all libraries will be available only after the release and the existing libraries are still incomplete. Also their openly shown arrogance does not much to befriend customers. For a company the relies heavily on its Playstation-Department they´re neglecting their customers in a way the can be only seen as foolish.

With the 360 I was really surprised how customer-friendly  MS can be.... normally I was used to our problems being ignored by the OS-department.... but the 360 department really listens to all kinds of gamers... my kudos to the emulation-ninjas... they´re really fast in reacting on reported problems.

So... Nintendo wants to court people the not normally play games... nothing wrong with this... but ignoring the early adaptors is going from one extreme to the other.... an could cost them sympathies.  

Im not going to post a 4 paragraph comment.
Ill just leave you all with this thought.
Is it important for microsoft to listen to its hardcore consumers?

Yes definitely, who else would take a bullet for the Xbox console but us hardcore. No seriously, I would stand infront of train to save an Xbox. Why is that, has the strategic marketing bred me into a brainwashed fanboy. No, im addicted to the community that has came with the console, the system has grown with me as a gamer. As certain features become old and tiresome, new features appear, features that only make sense. Why do they make sense, because you listen to the hardcore to see what they want. If you were to get all your opinions from the casual gamer, you would end up with a machine thats easy to pick up but quickly repedetive.(wii)

You can't please everyone.

In my opinion, of the big 3, MS is the only company who has an active community, and an actual TEAM dedicated to being "in the know" with the gaming community.

It's a great system - and it's also always bothered me that Sony and Nintendo don't do something similar.  Maybe I can chalk it up to MS being a US company, rather than the Japanese companies, maybe they do this sort of thing for their Japanese Gaming Community, maybe they don't.

At any rate I don't understand why more people aren't going after their market the way MS is here in the states.

-Chris
DreamStation

Microsoft should definitely listen to its customers, but you should take your own decisions as well!

The reality isn't black and white, it's somewhere inbetween.

Btw, for the next update, I'd recommend you focus on the problem in this thread:
http://forums.xbox.com/1159815/ShowPost.aspx

It's becoming more and more widespread.

The tard pack (core pack) would not have existed if Microsoft had listen to the active gaming community.
It would have benefited games more with a HDD as standard.

But hey... Companies do what they think is needed to reach a new and a broader audience.

Like the DS is a enormus success in Japan which out sell all system combined almost every week now... no one would have requeted such a system.

Looking at how poorly Microsoft is doing over in Japan with the 360 I wounder why they arnt listening to those consumers. ;)

The market is a tricky thing. You need to listen to some thing and ignore other to deliver something which might suprise everyone.

"1. Just like you dumped the Duke on the Xbox, it's time to replace the controller in the 360 with a better model. The new one? Make it exactly the same but with the BEST D-pad in the business, instead of the WORST. "

I agree, they should definitely replace the D-pad with the one from the Sega Master System.

...

What?

Nothing wrong with the D-pad on the 360, leave it alone.

===

From a business perspective, I would hope that Nintendo was saying that it doesn't JUST listen to its customers, but attempts to anticipate their future demands.

From a practical perspective, IMHO, Nintendo seems to be pandering to the media instead of talking to gamers.  In a kind of ironic way, their new console seems to be specifically targeted at not just the hardcore, but the superhardcore.  The key features (online, motion sensitivity, gestures, massive backward compatibility) are all features that traditionally only have traction with the superhardcore gamer and early adopter.  I'm not sure who this fantasy non-gamer is who is going to be buying this device instead of a flashback 2600 "console."

An additional quick comment about the DS, since it seems to be showing up a lot in this discussion:

The DS did not feature any significantly innovative technology.  Nintendo was really following the herd on portable devices with a pen interface.  What they accomplished wasn't "innovation" it was the successful merging of concepts from a predominantly non-gaming technology (although, I guess there are games on PalmOS too) into the gaming tech, to expand their market of consumers to include those who were already familiar with the pen interface for casual gaming (businessmen, and all kinds of people in the japanese gadget society).

They're really trying to do the same thing again now, by integrating the remote control into their new console.  However, as I noted above, I think that this unit is full of components that scream superhardcore, at least in the US.  We'll see if the same trick works again.

Japan is a tough market for gaijin companies... a lot western companies learned this the hard way... with respect to this "tradition" the 360 is doing better than I would have expected... and since Rockstars Tabletennis targets a sport that´s extremly popular in asian countries... one could hope that this is the title that might open up tha japanese oyster.

@D-Pad
No problems with the D-Pad over here in Europe.... maybe some bread-crumbs in between?

PingBack from http://www.bapenguin.com/?p=21

I think MS does a pretty good job on listening to what real gamers want.  Sometimes it just seems to take too long, but we're all greedy so I'm not sure that even matters.  I think we all really wish we could have more of our own content in games but to some degree that's not a good thing.  

Yes and No. If any game console company listened to the hard-core gaming community they would not make a profit and the market would not grow.

If their requests are feasible and it makes good business since, yes do what they request (background downloading for xbox live). There are times when you have to tell them No (I want a new Halo game every year and free Xbox Live).

I find some of the requests from the hardcore gaming comunity to be selfish. Remeber when you showed Viva Pinata to the community. You had to remind them that you do have to make games for others too, maybe their kids would like to play on the Xbox too.

It's wisdom that tells you when the hard-core gaming community is asking for things that aren't good for them and you have to say No.

Is Nintendo still taking care of their core audience. Yes. A few personal examples.
I wanted access to their older library of games-virtual console
I didn't like the DS size or design-DS Lite
I wanted a new Mario sidescroller game-New Mario Bros

and yes they have surprised me:
Opera browser on the DS and the Wii
A new controller
Games that the other members of my family will play
A well priced console

Keyword is 'balance'. Listen to your hardcore customers, they're better sellers for your product than prime time TV advertisements. But know when they are talking crap, and adapt their good ideas to the bigger audience.

I'll agree with what Curry has said.  The name of the game is balance.  

Nintendo focuses a niche market, particularly the younger crowd and the casual market of Japan.  As such, they were unable to tap the global market that craves for a different kind of experience that doesn't center on being cute and simple most of the time.

The XBOX 'lost' the last console war since it focused too much on the hardcore market.  I was not an XBOX owner for quite sometime and back then I viewed the XBOX as a console for hardcore gamers who are obsessed with graphics and FPS shooters.  While I was able to snap out of that impression, unfortunately a lot of people still consider things to be the same.

One of the biggest reasons why Sony won was because they were able to find a sweet spot between the niche crowd of Japanese loving gamers and the more hardcore crowd.  Their diverse line-up of games for the PS2 was formidable.  And that diversity made consumers content that they were buying the right console.  It didn't matter if consumers were not really going to buy Final Fantasy but rather they are secure in knowing that it is simply 'there'.

I believe the XBOX 360 is on the right track.  While some of the decisions Microsoft made may have made some of the hardcore gamers laugh, games like Viva Pinata and Kameo are a welcome relief!  Arcade like games is something that gamers need to break the monotony of intense hardcore games.  I'm still going to buy games like Gears of War, but I would love to play something light hearted every once in a while.

I have my issues with the Wii, that I have discussed further in my blog.  While I believe, Nintendo may definitely make an impact with the Wii in the Japan market, the rest of the world may not be as welcoming to the Wii.

In short, it's absolutely critical for companies to listen to their customers.  That's the key corporate distinction I see between Sony and Microsoft in the games industry: MS asks me what I want, while Sony tells me what I should want.  This has been true since the launch of the PS2, and the distinction between the two companies became clear to me somewhere near the beginning of the Xbox launch cycle.

Nintendo gets respect from gamers not just because they innovate, but because they invite gamers to be a part of the innovation in both their corporate attitude and in their practice of aggressively rethinking their stable of classic IPs to support the new products.  MS has a similarly inclusive attitude when dealing with its customers.  on the other hand, Sony expects and demands my participation, and that arrogance really turns me off.